Skip to content
Carmelics
TopicsThinkersChangesContributorsLoading account…

    Carmelics

    A reasoning platform. Break down any belief into clear reasons, explore both sides, and weigh the evidence honestly.

    Navigate

    • Topics
    • Search
    • Recent Changes
    • Contribute
    • How It Works
    • Glossary
    • Thinkers
    • Contributors
    • About
    • Statistics
    • Terms
    • Privacy

    Database

    Statements
    —
    Perspectives
    —
    Topics
    —

    Press ? for keyboard shortcuts

    LoyalLoyalJusticeJustice
    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    If no distinct possibilities exist, the hole argument est... — Carmelics
    Home
    HistoryEditSee Inverse

    Part of a larger discussion

    Challenges→The hole indeterminism is empirically undetectable

    If no distinct possibilities exist, the hole argument establishes formal underdetermination within a representational framework rather than genuine ontic indeterminism detectable or otherwise.

    ?Rate how convincing each reason is below to see the overall strength.
    1 reason for
    1 reason against

    Reasons For

    1 perspective
    Reason for
    ?
    • 1.The hole argument demonstrates that mathematical distinctness in model space need not entail physical distinctness, supporting formalism-reality distinction.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.If possibilities are indistinguishable in principle, they represent a representation problem rather than evidence for ontic indeterminacy.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.Formal underdetermination can obtain without metaphysical indeterminism if the framework itself creates spurious degrees of freedom.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reasons Against

    1 perspective
    Reason against
    ?
    • 1.The claim conflates epistemological limits (what we can represent) with metaphysical facts (what actually exists independently of representation).
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.Even if possibilities are representationally indistinct, they may remain genuinely distinct ontologically—the framework's limitations don't eliminate real differences.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.Distinguishing 'formal underdetermination' from 'ontic indeterminism' requires independent criteria for what counts as 'genuine'—the distinction itself lacks clear justification.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Sign in or register to share your perspective on this statement.

    Next step

    Based on where you are in your exploration

    Strongest counterpoint
    Explore the most compelling reason on the other side.

    Key Terms

    Distinct possibilities(as used in metaphysics and modal logic)
    Genuinely different scenarios or ways things could actually be; options that are meaningfully different from each other, not just different descriptions of the same thing.
    Formal underdetermination(as used in philosophy of science)
    A situation where multiple different mathematical or logical descriptions could fit the same evidence or observations, making it impossible to tell from the form or structure alone which description is correct.
    Ontic indeterminism(as used in metaphysics and philosophy of science)
    The idea that reality itself (not just our knowledge of it) contains genuine randomness or is fundamentally indeterminate—meaning the world isn't fully determined by prior causes.
    The hole argument(as used in philosophy of physics and metaphysics)
    A thought experiment in philosophy of physics (developed by John Earman and David Norton) that asks whether two physical situations that differ only in how we label points in spacetime are actually the same or different; it challenges whether our descriptions of reality are truly capturing what's real versus just how we're representing it.
    representational framework(the background knowledge needed to understand what features matter in a watch)
    A system of ideas and meanings that helps us understand and talk about something—in this case, our shared understanding of what a watch is supposed to do.

    Connections

    1 topic

    Free Will & Foreknowledge1 linked

    Related

    Distinguishing 'formal underdetermination' from 'ontic indeterminism' requires i...Even if possibilities are representationally indistinct, they may remain genuine...Formal underdetermination can obtain without metaphysical indeterminism if the f...If possibilities are indistinguishable in principle, they represent a representa...

    Details

    Type
    claim
    Perspectives
    2 (1 for, 1 against)
    Edits
    1 edit
    +3 moreShow less
    The claim conflates epistemological limits (what we can represent) with metaphys...The hole argument demonstrates that mathematical distinctness in model space nee...The hole indeterminism is empirically undetectable