Skip to content
Carmelics
TopicsThinkersChangesContributorsLoading account…

    Carmelics

    A reasoning platform. Break down any belief into clear reasons, explore both sides, and weigh the evidence honestly.

    Navigate

    • Topics
    • Search
    • Recent Changes
    • Contribute
    • How It Works
    • Glossary
    • Thinkers
    • Contributors
    • About
    • Statistics
    • Terms
    • Privacy

    Database

    Statements
    —
    Perspectives
    —
    Topics
    —

    Press ? for keyboard shortcuts

    LoyalLoyalJusticeJustice
    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    Home/Original/inverse
    See Original
    Inverse View

    It is not the case that The three Persons of the Trinity are numerically the same without being identical

    ?Set your confidence on the premises below to see your aggregate.

    Reasons For

    2 perspectives
    Reason for 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Leibniz's Law holds that if x and y are numerically the same entity, they share all properties without exception.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.The Father is unbegotten while the Son is begotten, so they differ in at least one intrinsic property.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.Therefore 'numerical sameness without identity' is incoherent: it either collapses into identity or admits real numerical distinction.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reason for 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.The lump-statue constitution model presupposes two distinct objects occupying the same matter at the same time, which generates Leibniz's Law violations even in the material case.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.Applying a model that is itself philosophically contested and generates paradoxes in ordinary metaphysics cannot resolve the deeper paradox of Trinitarian co-inherence—it merely relocates the contradiction.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.Peter van Inwagen and Michael Rea acknowledge that constitution-based Trinitarian models require abandoning standard predicate logic, making the solution more costly than the problem it purports to solve.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reasons Against

    1 perspective
    Reason against
    ?
    • 1.The Persons of the Trinity are constituted by the same divine essence, analogous to a lump-statue relation
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.Numerical sameness without identity is possible when distinct entities share the same constituting stuff
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.The Father, Son, and Spirit cannot fail to be related by this shared divine essence, ruling out merely accidental sameness
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Next step

    Based on where you are in your exploration

    Strongest counterpoint
    Explore the most compelling reason on the other side.