Skip to content
Carmelics
TopicsThinkersChangesContributorsLoading account…

    Carmelics

    A reasoning platform. Break down any belief into clear reasons, explore both sides, and weigh the evidence honestly.

    Navigate

    • Topics
    • Search
    • Recent Changes
    • Contribute
    • How It Works
    • Glossary
    • Thinkers
    • Contributors
    • About
    • Statistics
    • Terms
    • Privacy

    Database

    Statements
    —
    Perspectives
    —
    Topics
    —

    Press ? for keyboard shortcuts

    LoyalLoyalJusticeJustice
    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    Any account of the Trinity that treats the Persons as num... — Carmelics
    Home/Trinity
    HistoryEditSee Inverse

    Any account of the Trinity that treats the Persons as numerically identical faces a serious problem.

    Trinity
    ?Rate how convincing each reason is below to see the overall strength.
    2 reasons for
    1 reason against

    Reasons For

    2 perspectives
    Reason for 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Leibniz's Law holds that numerically identical entities share all properties, including relational and modal ones.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.The Father has the property 'being unbegotten' while the Son lacks it, constituting a genuine difference in intrinsic properties.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.No coherent identity relation can obtain between entities that differ in intrinsic properties, even under revisionary theology.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reason for 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Relative identity solutions (per Geach) require distinct sortal concepts under which entities are 'the same F', presupposing non-identity at the absolute level.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.If the Persons were numerically identical absolutely, relative identity distinctions would collapse into mere linguistic variance, not real Trinitarian distinction.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reasons Against

    1 perspective
    Reason against
    ?
    • 1.It is self-evident that if any x and any y are numerically identical, then x and y can never differ.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.Any account of the Trinity must allow that the Persons differ at least in respect of origin: only the Son is begotten, only the Spirit proceeds, and only the Father begets the Son.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Sign in or register to share your perspective on this statement.

    Next step

    Based on where you are in your exploration

    Strongest counterpoint
    Explore the most compelling reason on the other side.

    Topics

    Trinity

    Related

    Any account of the Trinity must allow that the Persons differ at least in respec...If the Persons were numerically identical absolutely, relative identity distinct...It is self-evident that if any x and any y are numerically identical, then x and...Leibniz's Law holds that numerically identical entities share all properties, in...
    +3 moreShow less
    No coherent identity relation can obtain between entities that differ in intrins...Relative identity solutions (per Geach) require distinct sortal concepts under w...The Father has the property 'being unbegotten' while the Son lacks it, constitut...

    Similar

    The Father and the Son are numerically distinct (non-identical).82%Ideas are really identical with the Divine Nature.78%The three Persons of the Trinity are numerically the same without bein...76%Lover and beloved in a charity of friendship cannot be numerically ide...73%

    Source

    AI-extracted2/3 agreementValid
    SEP: trinity
    Fourth, it is self-evident that if any x and any y are numerically identical...
    View source passageHide passage
    Fourth, it is self-evident that if any x and any y are numerically identical, it follows that x and y can’t ever differ. But arguably any account of the Trinity must allow that the Persons differ at least in respect of origin, so that only the Son is begotten, only the Spirit proceeds, and only the Father begets the Son.
    Extraction notes

    Validity: The premises logically support the conclusion that numerical identity of the Persons is problematic (since identity entails no difference, yet the Persons must differ in origin), and this argument is clearly present in the source passage.

    Confidence: The argument is clearly laid out in the text as a challenge to numerical-identity accounts of the Trinity.

    Details

    Type
    claim
    Perspectives
    3 (2 for, 1 against)
    Edits
    1 edit