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    Carmelics

    A reasoning platform. Break down any belief into clear reasons, explore both sides, and weigh the evidence honestly.

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    LoyalLoyalJusticeJustice
    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    Home/Original/inverse
    See Original
    Inverse View

    It is not the case that God is temporal after creation, even if God was timeless before creation.

    ?Set your confidence on the premises below to see your aggregate.

    Reasons For

    2 perspectives
    Reason for 1 of 2
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    • 1.Relations between God and creation are extrinsic denominations: they characterize how creatures stand to God, not intrinsic changes in God himself.
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    • 2.Aquinas's doctrine of real relations holds that creaturely dependence on God involves real relations in creatures but merely logical relations in God.
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    • 3.A merely logical or Cambridge change—being newly related without intrinsic alteration—does not suffice to introduce genuine temporality in the relatum.
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    Reason for 2 of 2
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    • 1.Eleonore Stump and Norman Kretzmann's ET-simultaneity framework allows a timeless God to be present to every temporal moment without thereby existing within time.
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      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.If timeless existence is compatible with genuine presence to temporal events, then creation introduces no temporal indexing into God's mode of being.
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    • 3.The supporting argument illicitly assumes that relational co-presence with temporal entities must itself be temporally located, which begs the question against divine timelessness.
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      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reasons Against

    1 perspective
    Reason against
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    • 1.When God creates the universe, God begins to stand in the relation of coexisting with and sustaining the universe in existence.
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    • 2.Acquiring these new relations to the universe constitutes a change that God undergoes at the moment of creation.
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    • 3.Undergoing change makes God temporal.
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