Skip to content
Carmelics
TopicsThinkersChangesContributorsLoading account…

    Carmelics

    A reasoning platform. Break down any belief into clear reasons, explore both sides, and weigh the evidence honestly.

    Navigate

    • Topics
    • Search
    • Recent Changes
    • Contribute
    • How It Works
    • Glossary
    • Thinkers
    • Contributors
    • About
    • Statistics
    • Terms
    • Privacy

    Database

    Statements
    —
    Perspectives
    —
    Topics
    —

    Press ? for keyboard shortcuts

    LoyalLoyalJusticeJustice
    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    God is temporal after creation, even if God was timeless ... — Carmelics
    Home/Afterlife & Death
    HistoryEditSee Inverse

    God is temporal after creation, even if God was timeless before creation.

    Afterlife & Death
    ?Rate how convincing each reason is below to see the overall strength.
    1 reason for
    2 reasons against

    Reasons For

    1 perspective
    Reason for
    ?
    • 1.When God creates the universe, God begins to stand in the relation of coexisting with and sustaining the universe in existence.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.Acquiring these new relations to the universe constitutes a change that God undergoes at the moment of creation.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.Undergoing change makes God temporal.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reasons Against

    2 perspectives
    Reason against 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Relations between God and creation are extrinsic denominations: they characterize how creatures stand to God, not intrinsic changes in God himself.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.Aquinas's doctrine of real relations holds that creaturely dependence on God involves real relations in creatures but merely logical relations in God.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.A merely logical or Cambridge change—being newly related without intrinsic alteration—does not suffice to introduce genuine temporality in the relatum.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reason against 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Eleonore Stump and Norman Kretzmann's ET-simultaneity framework allows a timeless God to be present to every temporal moment without thereby existing within time.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.If timeless existence is compatible with genuine presence to temporal events, then creation introduces no temporal indexing into God's mode of being.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.The supporting argument illicitly assumes that relational co-presence with temporal entities must itself be temporally located, which begs the question against divine timelessness.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Sign in or register to share your perspective on this statement.

    Next step

    Based on where you are in your exploration

    Strongest counterpoint
    Explore the most compelling reason on the other side.

    Topics

    Afterlife & Death

    Related

    A merely logical or Cambridge change—being newly related without intrinsic alter...Acquiring these new relations to the universe constitutes a change that God unde...Aquinas's doctrine of real relations holds that creaturely dependence on God inv...Eleonore Stump and Norman Kretzmann's ET-simultaneity framework allows a timeles...
    +5 moreShow less
    If timeless existence is compatible with genuine presence to temporal events, th...Relations between God and creation are extrinsic denominations: they characteriz...The supporting argument illicitly assumes that relational co-presence with tempo...Undergoing change makes God temporal.When God creates the universe, God begins to stand in the relation of coexisting...

    Similar

    God is timeless without creation and temporal with creation.91%God exists timelessly 'without' creation rather than before creation, ...88%God is timeless with respect to 'Measured Time' (the specifically huma...84%If God preceded times by being in time, God would not precede all time...83%

    Source

    AI-extracted
    SEP: eternity
    View source passageHide passage
    William Lane Craig’s view is that God is timeless without creation, and temporal with creation (Craig 2000). God exists timelessly “without” creation rather than before creation, because there isn’t literally a before. And so it can’t literally be the case that God becomes temporal, since becoming anything involves being first one thing and then the other. Nonetheless, God is “timeless without creation and temporal subsequent to creation ”, God “enters time at the moment of creation” (Craig 2000: 33). God exists changelessly and timelessly, but by creating, God undergoes an extrinsic change “w...

    Details

    Type
    claim
    Perspectives
    3 (1 for, 2 against)
    Edits
    1 edit