Skip to content
Carmelics
TopicsThinkersChangesContributorsLoading account…

    Carmelics

    A reasoning platform. Break down any belief into clear reasons, explore both sides, and weigh the evidence honestly.

    Navigate

    • Topics
    • Search
    • Recent Changes
    • Contribute
    • How It Works
    • Glossary
    • Thinkers
    • Contributors
    • About
    • Statistics
    • Terms
    • Privacy

    Database

    Statements
    —
    Perspectives
    —
    Topics
    —

    Press ? for keyboard shortcuts

    LoyalLoyalJusticeJustice
    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    If we are to come to God as voluntary agents, we can only... — Carmelics
    Home/Divine Attributes
    HistoryEditSee Inverse

    If we are to come to God as voluntary agents, we can only approach him from a position of sinfulness.

    Divine Attributes
    ?Rate how convincing each reason is below to see the overall strength.
    1 reason for
    2 reasons against

    Reasons For

    1 perspective
    Reason for
    ?
    • 1.If we are to experience a transition that ends in our being united to God, that transition can only begin from a place where we are separated from him.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.There is no morally neutral ground: unless we are within the circle of God's love, we must be outside it.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.Once we choose voluntarily to stand alone, we are already in an attitude of hostility toward God.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reasons Against

    2 perspectives
    Reason against 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Pelagius and later Erasmus argued that human nature retains sufficient goodness to orient toward God without presupposing a prior state of enmity.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.If prelapsarian Adam approached God voluntarily without sinfulness, voluntary agency and sinfulness are not logically co-extensive.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reason against 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Aquinas holds that grace can elevate a rational creature toward God from a condition of mere finitude, not necessarily moral opposition (ST I-II, q.109).
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.A transition from metaphysical dependence to conscious union with God is a coherent alternative starting point that is neither sinful nor morally neutral.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Sign in or register to share your perspective on this statement.

    Next step

    Based on where you are in your exploration

    Strongest counterpoint
    Explore the most compelling reason on the other side.

    Topics

    Divine Attributes

    Related

    A transition from metaphysical dependence to conscious union with God is a coher...Aquinas holds that grace can elevate a rational creature toward God from a condi...If prelapsarian Adam approached God voluntarily without sinfulness, voluntary ag...If we are to experience a transition that ends in our being united to God, that ...
    +3 moreShow less
    Once we choose voluntarily to stand alone, we are already in an attitude of host...Pelagius and later Erasmus argued that human nature retains sufficient goodness ...There is no morally neutral ground: unless we are within the circle of God's lov...

    Similar

    As creator, God is fully involved in those acts in which we sin, for t...75%If God only exacts devotion from us, we are reduced to being his subje...73%God moves us in accordance with our voluntary nature.72%God incurs no blame for sinful acts, because they are our acts, not hi...71%

    Source

    AI-extracted3/3 agreementValid
    SEP: providence-divine
    McCann 2005 / free will defense passage
    View source passageHide passage
    Another free will defense may yet be available (McCann 2005). (For other attempts to modify a variety of free will defenses so as to make them compatible with theological determinism, see Byerly 2017 and Almeida 2017.) It must be remembered that even though the actions of free creatures do not escape providence, such creatures are still an enhancement to creation, in that their nature reflects more closely what we suppose to be God’s own nature. As such, free creatures are more suited to the kind of fellowship with God that believers understand to be their ultimate destiny. It may be, however,...
    Extraction notes

    The passage explicitly presents these three premises in sequence as supporting reasons for the conclusion that "if we are to come to God as voluntary agents, it may well be that we can only approach him from a position of sinfulness," and the logical chain — transition requires starting from separation, separation means being outside God's love, and voluntarily standing alone constitutes hostility toward God — rationally supports that conclusion.

    Validity:

    Confidence: Clearly stated concluding argument of the passage.

    Details

    Type
    claim
    Perspectives
    3 (1 for, 2 against)
    Edits
    1 edit