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    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    The Father and the Son are really distinct and not really... — Carmelics
    Home/Trinity
    HistoryEditSee Inverse

    The Father and the Son are really distinct and not really the same.

    Trinity
    ?Rate how convincing each reason is below to see the overall strength.
    1 reason for
    2 reasons against

    Reasons For

    1 perspective
    Reason for
    ?
    • 1.The Father loves the Son.
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    • 2.Lover and beloved in a charity of friendship cannot be numerically identical.
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    • 3.Numerical distinctness (non-identity) implies real distinctness.
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    Reasons Against

    2 perspectives
    Reason against 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Within a single divine substance, relational opposition—not numerical distinctness—is sufficient to ground the distinction between Father and Son.
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    • 2.Aquinas's doctrine of subsistent relations holds that the persons are distinguished by relations alone, not by being separate res.
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    • 3.If real distinction requires separate res, then Trinitarian persons are relationally rather than really distinct in the relevant metaphysical sense.
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    Reason against 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Absolute divine simplicity entails that God admits of no real internal distinctions, since any real distinction implies composition.
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    • 2.If there are no real distinctions within God, Father and Son are distinguished only by mode of presentation or rational distinction (distinctio rationis), not in re.
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    • 3.The Sabellian-adjacent position that modal distinctions suffice for Trinitarian theology remains a live option consistent with strict divine simplicity.
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    Topics

    Trinity

    Related

    Absolute divine simplicity entails that God admits of no real internal distincti...Aquinas's doctrine of subsistent relations holds that the persons are distinguis...If real distinction requires separate res, then Trinitarian persons are relation...If there are no real distinctions within God, Father and Son are distinguished o...
    +5 moreShow less
    Lover and beloved in a charity of friendship cannot be numerically identical.Numerical distinctness (non-identity) implies real distinctness.The Father loves the Son.The Sabellian-adjacent position that modal distinctions suffice for Trinitarian ...Within a single divine substance, relational opposition—not numerical distinctne...

    Similar

    Ideas are really identical with the Divine Nature.88%The Father and the Son are numerically distinct (non-identical).84%Only the Trinity is God.81%If the three Persons are absolutely non-identical, it is hard to see w...78%

    Source

    AI-extracted2/3 agreementValid
    SEP: trinity
    Koons
    View source passageHide passage
    Divine love doesn’t imply further Persons because it’s the same relational property as divine self-knowing. God-as-knower isn’t numerically the same as God-as-known because of the essential asymmetry of the knowing relation (ibid.). Divine love, Koons says, is a kind of charity of friendship; thus, lover and beloved can’t be numerically identical. So if the Father loves the Son, this implies that they are numerically distinct (non-identical). It also implies that they are really distinct and not really the same. In specifying what he means by real distinctness Koons writes,
    Extraction notes

    Validity: The passage explicitly states that divine love as charity of friendship requires lover and beloved to be numerically distinct, that the Father loves the Son making them numerically distinct, and that this "also implies that they are really distinct and not really the same," which matches the extracted argument's logical chain from premises to conclusion.

    Confidence: Entailed by the chain of reasoning presented.

    Details

    Type
    claim
    Perspectives
    3 (1 for, 2 against)
    Edits
    1 edit