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    Carmelics

    A reasoning platform. Break down any belief into clear reasons, explore both sides, and weigh the evidence honestly.

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    LoyalLoyalJusticeJustice
    Made withinDC&Austin
    Statements
    321,452
    Perspectives
    108,905
    Topics
    42
    Home/Original/inverse
    See Original
    Inverse View

    It is not the case that Deserved suffering inflicted by a proper punitive desert agent is inherently good.

    ?Set your confidence on the premises below to see your aggregate.

    Reasons For

    2 perspectives
    Reason for 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Suffering, as a phenomenological evil, cannot be transformed into a good merely by the prior conduct of the one who suffers.
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      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.The grief analogy fails because grief is intrinsically connected to love and loss, whereas punitive suffering lacks any constitutive link to the wrongdoing it follows.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.If deserved suffering were intrinsically good, we would be obligated to maximize it, yet no retributivist accepts that torturing a murderer indefinitely becomes progressively better—revealing the 'inherent good' claim is incoherent.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reason for 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Kant's formula of humanity prohibits treating any person solely as a means, and inflicting suffering valued as good in itself reduces the offender to a mere vehicle for moral accounting.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.A state that takes satisfaction in the suffering of persons—even guilty persons—corrupts the moral character of its institutions, as Nietzsche diagnosed in the punitive will to cruelty masquerading as justice.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.The 'proper punitive desert agent' condition smuggles in all the normative work, leaving the intrinsic goodness claim empty without a prior and independent theory of legitimate authority.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Reasons Against

    1 perspective
    Reason against
    ?
    • 1.Non-deserved suffering is inherently bad, but deserved suffering should be distinguished from non-deserved suffering.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 2.Just as grief is good and morally valuable when a loved one has died, suffering might be good and morally valuable when experienced by a wrongdoer, especially if experienced in a way that is appropriately connected to having committed a particular wrong.
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      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    • 3.Given that a wrong has been committed, inflicting deserved suffering in response is better than not doing so.
      ?

      Think about whether this reason is strong or weak

    Next step

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    Strongest counterpoint
    Explore the most compelling reason on the other side.