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    Person-collapse should be rejected by trinitarians. — Carmelics
    Home/Trinity
    HistoryEditSee Inverse

    Person-collapse should be rejected by trinitarians.

    Trinity
    ?Rate how convincing each reason is below to see the overall strength.
    1 reason for
    2 reasons against

    Reasons For

    1 perspective
    Reason for
    ?
    • 1.Person-collapse entails that the Father just is the Son.
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    • 2.Person-collapse entails that the Spirit is three Persons (since, being numerically the same with God, and God is three Persons, the Holy Spirit will be three Persons).
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    • 3.These are claims any trinitarian should deny.
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    Reasons Against

    2 perspectives
    Reason against 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Latin trinitarians like Augustine hold that the divine persons are distinguished by relations of origin, not by being numerically distinct substances.
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    • 2.On a relative identity reading, 'the Father is God' and 'the Son is God' need not entail 'the Father is the Son' because identity claims are sortal-relative.
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    • 3.If identity is sortal-relative, person-collapse does not follow from shared divine substance, neutralizing the force of P1 and P2.
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    Reason against 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Modalists like Sabellius historically accepted that Father, Son, and Spirit are numerically identical with God while denying tritheism, showing a coherent trinitarian-adjacent position exists.
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    • 2.The supporting argument assumes orthodoxy requires affirming three hypostases as numerically distinct, but this begs the question against sophisticated modal monarchianism.
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    • 3.A defender of person-collapse can bite the bullet on P1 and P2 by arguing these 'problematic' entailments are features of strict divine simplicity, not bugs.
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    Related

    A defender of person-collapse can bite the bullet on P1 and P2 by arguing these ...If identity is sortal-relative, person-collapse does not follow from shared divi...Latin trinitarians like Augustine hold that the divine persons are distinguished...Modalists like Sabellius historically accepted that Father, Son, and Spirit are ...
    +5 moreShow less
    On a relative identity reading, 'the Father is God' and 'the Son is God' need no...Person-collapse entails that the Father just is the Son.Person-collapse entails that the Spirit is three Persons (since, being numerical...The supporting argument assumes orthodoxy requires affirming three hypostases as...These are claims any trinitarian should deny.

    Similar

    Person-collapse entails that the Father just is the Son.77%Person-collapse entails that the Spirit is three Persons (since, being...76%It is awkward to accept the main results of the ancient trinitarian co...73%These are claims any trinitarian should deny.73%

    Source

    AI-extracted2/3 agreementValid
    SEP: trinity
    Third, Person-collapse entails claims any trinitarian should deny...
    View source passageHide passage
    Third, Person-collapse entails claims any trinitarian should deny, including that the Father just is the Son, and that the Spirit is three Persons. (Being numerically the same with God, since God is three Persons, the Holy Spirit will be three Persons.) Pickup concedes that at first glance such claims “sound bad”, but replies that any “Latin” account of the Trinity will as such have to accept such claims (428).
    Extraction notes

    Validity: The passage explicitly presents these premises as reasons why Person-collapse entails claims any trinitarian should deny, directly supporting the conclusion that trinitarians should reject Person-collapse.

    Confidence: Clearly stated argument against Person-collapse.

    Details

    Type
    claim
    Perspectives
    3 (1 for, 2 against)
    Edits
    1 edit