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    The smoke certifies the accomplished destruction forever ... — Carmelics
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    Challenges→The phrase "smoke that rises forever and ever" as used in the NT supports the claim that the punishment of the wicked lasts forever

    The smoke certifies the accomplished destruction forever instead of continual destruction

    All sources support itEternal Conscious TormentProof of definition segments
    ?Rate how convincing each reason is below to see the overall strength.
    2 reasons for
    2 reasons against

    Reasons For

    2 perspectives
    Reason for 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Revelation 14:11 adds 'they have no rest day or night,' a phrase absent from Genesis 19, indicating a distinct and ongoing experiential state.
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    • 2.The grammatical present tense of 'have no rest' (ἔχουσιν) in Greek denotes continuous, unceasing action rather than a completed past event.
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    • 3.Intertextual allusion does not require semantic identity; a later text may extend or transform a source image to signify a new theological reality.
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    Reason for 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.Isaiah 34:10, which also uses perpetual smoke imagery for Edom, is explicitly temporally extended ('from generation to generation'), suggesting the smoke motif inherently implies duration rather than mere finality.
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    • 2.Gregory of Nyssa and Tertullian both distinguish between the cessation of an event and the ongoing testimony of its consequences, a distinction applicable to perpetual smoke as witness to an enduring state.
      ?

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    Reasons Against

    2 perspectives
    Reason against 1 of 2
    ?
    • 1.The Revelation 14:11 phrase is taken from Genesis 19
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    • 2.Genesis 19 is about complete and final destruction of Sodom
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    • 3.If the above is true, the phrase is about complete and final destruction
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    Reason against 2 of 2
    ?
    • 1.The Revelation 14:11 phrase is taken from Genesis 19
      ?

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    • 2.Genesis 19 is about complete and final destruction of Sodom
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    • 3.If the above is true, the phrase is about complete and final destruction
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    Topics

    Proof of definition segmentsEternal Conscious TormentAll sources support it

    Connections

    1 linked claim

    The phrase "smoke that rises forever and ever" as used in the NT supports the cl...

    Related

    Genesis 19 is about complete and final destruction of SodomGregory of Nyssa and Tertullian both distinguish between the cessation of an eve...If the above is true, the phrase is about complete and final destructionIf the above is true, the smoke certifies the accomplished destruction forever i...
    +6 moreShow less
    Intertextual allusion does not require semantic identity; a later text may exten...Isaiah 34:10, which also uses perpetual smoke imagery for Edom, is explicitly te...Revelation 14:11 adds 'they have no rest day or night,' a phrase absent from Gen...The Revelation 14:11 phrase is taken from Genesis 19The grammatical present tense of 'have no rest' (ἔχουσιν) in Greek denotes conti...The phrase "smoke that rises forever and ever" as used in the NT supports the cl...

    Similar

    If the above is true, the smoke certifies the accomplished destruction...97%The term "everlasting destruction," as used in the NT, supports the cl...80%If the above is true, then it is not the case that the term "everlasti...78%The phrase "smoke that rises forever and ever" as used in the NT suppo...77%

    Source

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    Details

    Type
    claim
    Perspectives
    4 (2 for, 2 against)
    Edits
    1 edit